Saturday, February 9, 2013

patrick j miron -- The church cannot sin; only Her members can.



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  #46   Report this Post to the Moderator  
Unread Feb 7, '13, 5:14 am
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Default Re: Here is the real truth

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Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
Conversion stories.

Ex-catholics ALWAYS bash the Church for something.
Exactly my point. Anecdotes. Stories. I think your absolute characterizations do not hold up to scrutiny.
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 12:51 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

As usual with messy humans, the reasons vary. Sometimes its basically the fault of those who leave, sometimes its the fault of those who witnessed a horribly faulty version of the gospel to them. Most often, it's a combination of both.

The fact is that although the Church was created by God and entrusted to us, we've done a bad job with the gift we've been given. It goes back to that thing about needing a Savior. Still do!

It's hard to deny that several generations of American catholics have been poorly catechized and even more poorly evangelized. It's kind of hard to blame somebody who never encountered the love of Christ in a fellow catholic and never learned the truth about the divine gifts of the sacraments for jumping ship when they encountered fired up and holy evangelical protestants and wanted to feel that way themselves.

Curtis Martin's quote sounds smug unless you've been around both kinds of converts enough to understand what he's saying. Essentially, he's saying that people who leave catholicism do so because somehow they didn't feel they encountered Christ here. Sometimes the departure comes after disgust, sometimes it happens when they are inspired by the Holy Spirit present in a christian of a separated community. But people who leave evangelicalism for catholicism do so because they HAVE encountered Christ in their protestant community and listened to Him closely enough to discover that He really did found one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. And they want to join!
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 12:58 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

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Originally Posted by 1roman View Post
Else where in the meta Dan Phillips mentioned to me that we should have a contest.

“How many Romish anathemas can you rack up?”

I decided to count the number of anathemas that I am under from the 33 canons on justification. My count is 23 anathemas as I understand the canons. I tried to consider any nuances. Keep in mind that this is only 1 of 25 sessions of Trent.
Leading the church requires BOTH proposing the truth of the gospel AND being diligent to suppress erroneous ideas. In the early church, the apostles clearly did both as can easily be seen in the New Testament. You may have a point that in the era of Trent, the suppression of error was emphasized to excess at the expense of proclaiming the joyfulness of the gospel. But you can hardly argue that the jettisoning of apostolic authority to suppress error hasn't been a disaster just as bad for y'all too. That approach has created spiritual anarchy where anybody who can read the bible declares himself to be the final authority on interpreting it and we have tens of thousands of nominally christian communities all disagreeing with each other and yet each claiming to preach the gospel faithful to the bible. That's MORE absurd than all those anethemas you mock!
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 3:25 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

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=Mike30;10326184]I think many leave due to disillusionment, bitterness and a sense of betrayal.. For instance my sister left, not only the Church but faith in God period due to the problems of suffering in the world on the part of innocents and the actions and non action on the part of many in the Church hierachry towards the child and sexual abuse scandals. She could not reconcile these things in her mind and she left.

I know many others who feel that the Church let them down by these same things and departed as well. And in no small part I can see their confusion and their dismay at what has transpired.
The problem here is that these folks are CONFUSING "the Church"; with the people [clergy included who are only members of the church]. Their decsion is highly judgemental and sadly puts their own souls at grave risk. Heb 6:4-8

Meambers of the Chruch can and do sin; but "the Church"; LIKE HER FOUNDER is:

One

Holy &

Thanks to Christ Catholic [Universal]

and Apostolic [Following in their path]

The church cannot sin; only Her members can.

What amazes ME, is that Fact that they literally walk out on; walk away from thier God; our Jesus

God Help us!

pat/PJM
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 3:45 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

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Why do and are catholics leaving the Church and possibily their salvation. Heb. 6:4-8

Continued Blessings,

Pat
I left the Church as a young adult and was gone for over 15 years and spent most of those years identifying as “spiritual but not religious”.

I did not have a strong religious upbringing. I was baptized because it was expected. We went to Mass occasionally, Christmas & Easter mostly, and sometimes with my grandparents. I learned the Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be & the Sign of the Cross from my Italian great-grandmother, in both Italian & English. I also prayed the Rosary with her, but that was really the extent of my catechesis until I was about 10 when I was enrolled in “CCD” and spent 2 hours every Saturday reading cheesy “textbooks” and doing crafts.
I received First Communion, First Penance & Confirmation (yes, in that order ) all by the time I was 14 and then I ‘graduated’ and was know an ‘adult member of the Church’ yet there was nothing to help me grow in my faith.

To complicate matters, my father was Episcopalian. My grandfather’s family had strong ties to the Episcopal Church and although he himself was basically “non-practicing” and my grandmother had never been baptized, my father & his siblings were baptized/confirmed so we attended church functions with my aunts, uncles & cousins at their church often. I even witnessed my grandmother's baptism on her 60th birthday!
We received communion and were told it was “OK”, because it was basically the same thing as Catholic, Episcopalian’s just didn’t believe in the Pope, and he’s just a man, not God, so what difference did it make…”

I also had some run-ins with some rather unpleasant, very un-pastoral and unprofessional clergy and laity who worked for the Church, as well as many run-ins with some of the “more Catholic than the Pope” crowd, which to be honest, just left a “bad taste in my mouth”. If this is what it means to be “religious”, I’ll pass, thank you very much, was pretty much my attitude.


Now, how & why I came back are not important for this discussion, but I should mention, that when I came back, I was still most definitely a “cafeteria Catholic” who leaned very far into heterodoxy/borderline heresy.
By the grace of God, a couple wonderful spiritual directors/confessors and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, as well as my studies for my Master’s degree in Sacramental & Pastoral Ministry, I have experienced a metanoia, and have started to embrace a more orthodox spirituality, using St. Ignatius’ wisdom as a guide for discernment.
The question I always try to ask myself is
“Am I doing/saying this for my glory or for HIS?” I don’t always choose the “better part” but with His grace, I am getting better.

To wrap up, you quote Hebrews, and in verse 4, I believe you answer your own question-
Quote:
For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit.
I truly believe that those who leave are, for the most part like me, raised “culturally Catholic”, with no real catechesis, so therefore they have never been “enlightened”.

ETA: for a time-frame reference, I am the same age as the Missal of Paul VI!
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 4:33 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

well the many catholics i have met in the assemblies of God , or in the calvery chaple churches and the penecostial -- left because of he poor teaching and the lack of fellowship they found in the catholic. So they found better scripture understanding and spiritual life in other fellowships..

It would seem that the catholic education system has to compete with other religious groups and one can see the result.. and each group is "right in their own eyes"

and the other group lovingly points their finger to tell them they are wrong..

and where i grew up in the DETROIT area-- i know many catholics who were led astray and molested.. but as they say-- ya can't take that stuff "personal" just next time recognize a deceiver and a pervert..

just because a person calls them self a catholic and goes to mass once a well dosen't make them a good person..
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 5:16 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
The problem here is that these folks are CONFUSING "the Church"; with the people [clergy included who are only members of the church]. Their decsion is highly judgemental and sadly puts their own souls at grave risk. Heb 6:4-8

Meambers of the Chruch can and do sin; but "the Church"; LIKE HER FOUNDER is:

One

Holy &

Thanks to Christ Catholic [Universal]

and Apostolic [Following in their path]

The church cannot sin; only Her members can.

What amazes ME, is that Fact that they literally walk out on; walk away from thier God; our Jesus

God Help us!

pat/PJM
Not necessarily...I left to walk towards Jesus...and I learned a lot about Him and the bible in my protestant faith. And draw closer to Him back in the Church. But I didn't lose Him.

I don't think threads such as these are productive. Why can we not listen to what people have to say and let that be a lesson to us? Someone left because people deeply wounded them? Do we see that in our parish? Are we that person? Let that be a call to us to reach out.

People left due to no teaching? How much are we doing in our homes/with our families/ or are friends? Do we know ourselves? Maybe that is what our lesson is.

It shouldn't be why did they leave (and judging them for that) but how do we get them back...how do we reach out. Or better yet...how do we reach out to those amongst us to help make sure that they don't leave.
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Unread Feb 7, '13, 6:06 pm
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Default Re: Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

Reasons for leaving summary in this thread.

1. Ignorance of the faith
2. Divorced, and go to another church.
3. Hurt by someone in the church, real or imaginary.
4. Priest scandal
5. Keep family unity by attending spouse's church
6. Fun and games.
7. Same sex issues.
8. Getting nothing from it.
9. other...

Maria Simma who wrote a book about purgatory, who was a mystic, had this to say.

"It is not the teaching of the church that is at fault. The people in positions of authority neglected to teach their young that Jesus is all good, all positive, and all loving. They preached too many threats and too little about love. They taught almost nothing about the immense beauty of prayer and of fasting. They pushed aside Our Lady and St. Michael the Archangel, and when that happens, the two greatest intercessors for us are neglected and then turmoil is always the result. So, in short, I would say that due to the lack of these: love, prayer, fasting penance, Our Lady and St. Michael; Satan was permitted to gain ground on all fronts."

Just a thought.
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